Episode 68 – Building a Mutually Beneficial Business with People at the Core – Edgar Carreon, Founder of dree

Joe Quattrone (00:00):

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Katie Hankinson (00:33):

Welcome to building while flying a Sasha group podcast, where we interview business leaders about how they tackle challenges, stay resilient and navigate ever changing skies.

Maribel Lara (00:45):

All right. So Edgar, I feel like this conversation has been in the waiting. Uh, we met a few years back pre pandemic, uh, when things were very different. Um, and there’s a lot that’s happened with your business. Like I mentioned to you in our, uh, pre-production call for this interview, that there was so much about Dre that I didn’t know. And so when I, when you launched it, I was like, wait, what is this? And, and why didn’t I talk to him about this? So I am very excited, um, to have you on building while flying for people to get to know you, as well as hear about dree, because you are an entrepreneur, like your career has really been built around building things. Um, and dree is the latest and greatest, but I, I don’t doubt that there will be more forthcoming. Uh, and I know that there are things that got you here, so we’re gonna try to get into as much as we can. Cool.

Edgar Carreon (01:40):

Yeah, that sounds awesome. I’m excited about it. I, I feel the same way. I think this is a conversation that that’s been in, in the queue for a while.

Maribel Lara (01:48):

Amazing. So we’re gonna talk a lot about dree because that’s, what’s in the present. So why don’t we start with, uh, what dree is and where the idea came from?

Edgar Carreon (02:00):

Yeah. So dree is a peer to peer laundry marketplace. So what that means is that we connect you with people in your community that are looking for at-home work opportunities so that you can outsource the one thing you do at home that is time consuming and very low reward, which is laundry.

Maribel Lara (02:17):

You have to tell people where the idea came from.

Edgar Carreon (02:20):

Yeah. So, you know, so I spent about a, almost a decade and a half in restaurants and I had a coffee company. We used to distribute along the west coast. And I, I did that because it’s what worked, it wasn’t anything that I was necessarily passionate about, you know, in, in fact, like, I’ll tell you just a little bit, I, I started in restaurants because I wanted to get married and I didn’t have a consistent income, which I don’t know how I made those two make sense. <laugh>

Edgar Carreon (02:51):

But, um, I, I wanted to, I wanted to show my now wife, like, Hey, I got this together and, and I’m a go getter. So I went into restaurants and it happened to work. So I, I ended up, you know, doing it a bunch of times over and it worked out. But when I, when I exited the restaurant business in 2018, January, 2018, I kind of sat there and was like, I, I, I felt like I had been proving the wrong people wrong, you know, growing up in the states. I, uh, I came when I was 10 years old and I, I was bullied a ton. And I always felt like the reason why I went through such a poor experience coming to the us wasn’t because I was an immigrant or because I was like, you know, dark colored skin, but because I just couldn’t keep up with everything they had going on in their lives due to their access to money.

Edgar Carreon (03:44):

And so, you know, I think a lot of the energy that went into building those businesses was, was just driven by the wrong thing. So when I left that industry, I said, you know, what about, what are you gonna do now? Like who do you, you have nobody to prove anymore. Like, there’s no, you know, there’s nobody, you can look back to, to say ha you were wrong. You know? And so it was really cool because I, it, it took me about a year and it was a transformation of understanding that it was, it was, I had a choice in, and that I could do this for myself now, and that I could do something that was meaningful to me, that I was that I would be happy about spending my time doing. And so, um, I started getting more involved with the Hispanic community, which is something I hadn’t done my entire restaurant career cuz as you probably know, that industry is so time consuming.

Edgar Carreon (04:38):

And um, in, in the, in those groups I met a young man that was, um, trying to do that, you know, picking up people’s laundry from his neighborhood, bringing it back to his parents and, and they were making a living off of that. So when I, when I was talking to him in his group, I was like, do you know what you have? <laugh> like, this is pretty amazing. This is pretty special. And um, you know, I tried talking to him to see if it was something he would wanna do to grow and, and it wasn’t something he wanted to do, which is okay for him. I, I feel like maybe he, he had different dreams, different vision for mm-hmm, <affirmative> what he wanted to accomplish. And so I, um, I guess my entrepreneur spirit came out and I, and I essentially said to him, well, we either partner or we compete <laugh>. And so, um, yeah, so I went to work on Andrea and that’s how that’s originally how it came about. I always say, I’m not like a creative genius, but I can see something and make it really special. And I feel like that’s what happened here.

Maribel Lara (05:41):

I think it’s so special that you did give him the opportunity to build it with you. Right? Yeah. There’s so many people that wouldn’t, it says so much about you that you would give him that opportunity. My immediate reaction was cringing of like, oh my gosh, I wish he would’ve said yes to you. <laugh> but you do. I find, I find comfort right. In what you said, which is like, maybe that wasn’t his vision and that wasn’t his dream. Um, do you, are you still like in communication with this man or

Edgar Carreon (06:10):

Not? We, we spent a lot of time together. Um okay. But I’m a, and, and we have, we still have a relationship in that we don’t, there’s no like beef for any kind of friction there. Yeah.

Maribel Lara (06:21):

Yeah.

Edgar Carreon (06:22):

It’s just that I have something to build and I, and, and this is just my, the way I’ve always been is like a race horse. So I put those blinders on. Yeah. And that’s that essentially like access out anything that is not related to what we’re building.

Maribel Lara (06:37):

Amazing. Um, okay. So, so I wanna talk about, um, your business model, you know, the way that you talk about it is there’s there’s mutual benefit, right? Like you are creating benefit obviously in terms of like time for the end customer. Uh, but you are also creating a benefit for your worker. Um, and I started referring to your worker as Elda, but there is an original Elda. So tell us who I is. Um, and tell us about, um, how Elda plays a part in how you’ve built dree or, or really like how you’ve developed some of the purpose behind dree.

Edgar Carreon (07:21):

Yeah. So I, I came to the states with my family when I was 10 years old. And this is something that doesn’t, I, I don’t hear, I’ve never heard much about this, but something that you never get told when you’re a young kid coming to the us is the price of the American dream. And that price is like losing your parents to work and that you don’t have a choice. They, they have to go and they have to go the day after you get here. And they have to go really early and they come home really late. It’s like, for me, that that really stamped me like a lot I’m that was 20 years, 20 years ago, more, more than 28 years ago. Like that’s a long time ago. And it’s still like at the core of what drives me, but it was because I, I didn’t have a very enjoyable time coming to the us.

Edgar Carreon (08:18):

You know, it was not speaking the language, not knowing the culture. And like, literally two, three days after we got here where we were in school and my parents were working. And so there were a lot of things that were just, that were happening that we couldn’t tell anyone about, cuz nobody who were we gonna talk to? My parents were gone. And the people we, the, the family we lived with were, they had all these things going on and here I am, a 10 year old kid, you know, what am I gonna say to my Tia? Oh, you know, Tia, this kid is bullying me, telling me that I’m an immigrant. She’s gonna look at me and say, well, you, you are <laugh>. And so that was really the reason I mentioned that is because as I, when I saw this idea of laundry and I saw this, this guy was bringing laundry to his parents, I couldn’t stop thinking about that for me, where I felt like if my mom had an opportunity to work from home, that she would’ve taken it, zero questions asked.

Edgar Carreon (09:21):

Right. And it would’ve changed our journey coming to the us. It would’ve been completely different. And as much as my mom tried, you know, I’d come home destroyed from like, I would get my, I would get my kicked. I would get spit on. I’d be walking by, on a field by myself, not bothering anyone. Cuz I, I was just, I wasn’t part of anything. And they would be these kids that were just walk by and beat me down, you know, for no reason. And I’d come home and I could, I know my mom could see it when she got home after five o’clock and she would, and she would be like, Mijo, I feel so much peace with you because I know you’re in love, go hungry. You’re a fighter. And so like in those like 15 seconds, my mom changed my life, you know? And so when I saw this idea for Dre and when I thought about my mom Elda, I, I, I, I felt like I owed all <inaudible>

Edgar Carreon (10:34):

That job like that opportunity to, to stay home. And that is like the driving force behind what I do. I, I say, you know, I happen to have married my customer, so it works out great, you know? Um, but really this is all driven by and, and I wrote this letter, um, two weeks ago to my mom. And in that letter, I, I was like, so just wanting to feel vulnerable. I’m not, not gonna give it to her probably ever, but I, I felt like I needed to say it to her, but it was like telling her, like, I, I’m sorry, it took so long

Edgar Carreon (11:19):

For me to act on what I knew needed to be done because after having spent a decade and a half building restaurants to prove these kids that used to beat me up, that I wasn’t falling behind or that I was better than. And I, and I didn’t, I didn’t tend to the things that were so important to me as a result. And, and, and, and so anyway, today, when I gave you that example of putting those blinders on yeah. It’s because I’m on this mission. When we get an application from one of our <inaudible>, um, I just had a conversation with our onboarder onboarding specialist. I said, two days ago, I said this to her. I said, anytime that notification goes off, you, you have the ability to change my mom’s life.

Maribel Lara (12:16):

Yeah. Well, I I’m struggling. You’re making me fight right now cuz I’m a llorana for people who don’t know what that is, I’m a crier. And so I’m really like fighting really hard, um, to, to keep it together. Uh, thank you for getting vulnerable with us. Um, thank you for sharing that story. Thank you for building something for the Eldas, but not just for the Eldas for their families. Right? Like, um, what what’s so beautiful about what you built is right? Like there’s the example of the immigrant parents. Um, but so many families, right? Like you have to have both parents, if there are two parents working or if you’ve got a single parent, right. They’re trying to parent and they’re trying to work. It is a luxury for a child, right. It is a privilege for a child, not a luxury. It is a privilege for a child to be able to come home and have a parent be there, right.

Maribel Lara (13:16):

To help them process their day to help them navigate the things that they faced that day. Um, and you didn’t, I just identify a business opportunity. You identified an opportunity to really like make families whole, right. Yeah. And you know, if only we could solve a way to do that across the board. Right. I understand some jobs need to be, to be done in per, in person, but you found a way to create a mechanism. Um, that is so powerful on both ends. Right. We often talk about the, uh, the needs of the consumer that are being, being met by a new business, but like yeah, there are needs for that mom. And we’ll talk about that in a bit. Yeah. Um, but there are needs for that worker and for creating more opportunities for people to be able to, to work from home. So thank you for sharing that story. We could end here and I think it would be an amazing episode, but we’re gonna talk some more.

Edgar Carreon (14:15):

No, thank you so much.

Maribel Lara (14:17):

Thank you. Um, so I, so I mentioned, uh, I referred to your customer, the end customer, the person for whom the laundry is being done, uh, as a woman. Yes. And I did that because again, in our pre-pro interview you were unapologetic. Um, so I was referring to your customer and, and you referred to it as a woman. And I was like, well, but there are men that stay home too. Right. And so your customer includes men and you were unapologetic about like, sure, yeah. We have customers who are men, but I built this business for women because it’s primarily women that are doing this work. And it is primarily women that we’re impacting, like tell us like where that unapologetic, like attitude came from. Yeah.

Edgar Carreon (15:03):

I, it, you know, it comes from the fact that I, there was this, I, I didn’t know this when I went into it, but I read this study that said that 78% of the time that laundry’s done in a home, it’s done by women in the home and that’s

Maribel Lara (15:17):

70 Percent,

Edgar Carreon (15:19):

78%,

Maribel Lara (15:21):

78%. Okay.

Edgar Carreon (15:22):

Yeah. So when you think about that, it’s eight outta 10 times that the, the laundry is done. It’s done by women in the home. Now in the us, there are 38 billion loads of laundry done each year. Okay. How much time are women spending on this? And mm-hmm <affirmative> I felt like it would be neglectful of me to pretend to be inclusive when this problem is not a problem that we’re all dealing with, you know, like certainly has impact in your relationship. It has an impact on your children. But I ran in yesterday, just yesterday. I was having a conversation with the CMO of a multi-billion dollar company here in Utah. And she’s telling me that she’s been wanting to sign up for dree. But every time she walks by her washer and dryer, she feels that it’s her responsibility. Now this is someone that’s leading again, CMO at a multi-billion dollar company. And the reason she hasn’t signed up is because she feels that it’s her responsibility to do it.

Maribel Lara (16:36):

She feels guilty.

Edgar Carreon (16:38):

She feels guilty. She feels shame outsourcing this thing that she was told, belong to her. I mean, think about how moms and so many of our customers, we have so many conversations with them where they’re like, oh, I was actually trying to use laundry to teach my daughter how to be responsible before she goes into college or before she goes into high school. And that isn’t like, that is not an it’s an outdated view, but it’s so present. Otherwise the data from today, wouldn’t say that 78% of women were responsible for the laundry in the home. Right. Right. It’s still as were dealing with as outdated as we might think. That is. And so I just, you know, a couple of things happen as, as, as I learned that number one is as a Latino, I always looked at companies and said, and I won’t name companies, even though I want to, I’m still tempted <laugh> but <laugh>, but their way of building something for us was to put a picture of someone that looked like us and that was it. And somehow we were supposed to relate to that and connect to that service or product. And I was always like, no, you just ask us some questions. We can guide you through what that experience product experience should look like.

Maribel Lara (17:56):

So hard. Right. So, so difficult to do that. So difficult to ask us.

Edgar Carreon (18:01):

Yeah. Well it feels like it is, it feels like we’re in like some other hidden somewhere. Um, but, but I was just like, you know, there’s no way that I can do what I’m doing, solving a problem for 78% of the world’s population without them at the table. There I, it, it’s impossible for me to do that, you know, and there was, there’s a story I’ll mention and, and I haven’t dug too deep to see that if this is true, but there’s a story that that’s, that goes around. Um, the internets, um, that says that, um, when Jeff Bezo was building Amazon, there was at, at any of their executive meetings, there was always an empty chair in, in that room. And that empty chair was supposed to remind them of their customer. That was their customer in the room. And I thought, um, with all due respect, that is the stupidest thing anyone could ever do.

Edgar Carreon (18:55):

<laugh> to have an empty chair and pretend that someone is sitting there, like the chair doesn’t speak, nobody’s speaking on behalf of anyone it’s you like remembering your customer, but not letting them speak. And, and so, um, the first thing I did was when I, when I, when that like hit me with our, the data we were learning was I need a female co-founder and we had already launched our product, our service. And, you know, we were already gaining traction. The, the MVP was built, but I was like, I, I have to be like, I have to honor the things that I demand from other companies. And so got a female co-founder and made a commitment that at the very minimum, 78% of our team would be, uh, women. And we are way beyond that. <laugh>, we’re, we’re up in the nineties. <laugh> um, which is amazing, which is amazing. Um, in fact, there are only, um, so in, in the company as a whole, um, there are only three guys <laugh> and we, we all feel including, so you can imagine it’s a cool environment.

Maribel Lara (20:14):

Well, and something you said to me was like, I lead Dr-. I lead dree today, but I won’t always tell me more about that.

Edgar Carreon (20:24):

Well, think, look, I, I, this is something that I think a lot of, a lot of times maybe investors don’t like to hear, but the, the reality is that even as I was having this conversation with the CMO yesterday of this large company, I could not empathize with her. You know, I couldn’t help her overcome the shame that she felt. And so as a company, like our problem is not do people hate laundry? Yeah. I mean, nobody likes doing laundry, especially if you don’t get paid. So like in our marketing and our messaging and everything, we do the tone of what comes out of dree is supposed to overcome that challenge. And so I feel that at, even though I have, you know, my co-founder, um, so close to me, I, I do believe that the great barrier that we face is going to be solved and led by a woman.

Edgar Carreon (21:23):

And it’s, it’s like, it’s, it’s not the easiest thing to say, but it’s the most honest thing I can say. I do have a responsibility to build the foundation, you know, because I’m, I’m like the way that I am as a, as a leader is I have these weird, they’re not weird. They’re actually really exciting where I go into the future and I see it and I live it and it’s tangible. It feels like I actually am there. And then I come back and then I tell my team, this is where we need to go. And, you know, we all execute on those intentions and I feel like I have a responsibility to get this to a certain point. So that the vision, the mission of building this for women, for Elda and for every other person, that’s looking to spend time on what matters most. That’s my job. And I take that, like, I’m, that’s my core responsibility, but I do believe that the V2, um, should be a woman.

Maribel Lara (22:32):

How do you think you’ll know when you’ve gotten there?

Edgar Carreon (22:37):

I, I feel like, uh, what we do, it’s really clear when there’s a bottleneck in our business. It’s very, very clear. Um, I, I, I think that I’m a fairly self-aware individual, um, I’m incredibly transparent, like very transparent, you know, the way that I’m telling you about my mom, my journey as an immigrant, my entire team knows all of that. They know why I’m here every single day. And, and I feel like that helps me become more self-aware um, or self aware, um, as to where, when that time comes. Um, I think it will be, I think it’ll be a lot, like when, when I found out that 78%, it was, it didn’t, it was like an immediate, I need a female, co-founder it? Wasn’t a, oh, you know, we should discuss this. And what do you guys think? And it was like, no, you have to have that person at the table. And I’ll tell you a cool story about that. That co-founder was a customer. It was a customer. So I was actually, I, it was, so it was ear. It was still early in, in, you know, from our launch. I was dropping off her laundry.

Maribel Lara (23:56):

Wow.

Edgar Carreon (23:57):

Picked it up from the washer’s home, went and dropped it off. And her husband was outside and he called me in, he’s like, Hey, we’d love to talk to you. And they’re starting to tell me about their experience with dree. And when, you know, when I was walking out, the, the wife said, you know, you need a female co-founder and I’m, you know, I’ve already been there. Like, I’ve already had that vision.

Maribel Lara (24:25):

How do you know <laugh>?

Edgar Carreon (24:27):

She said that. And then I left. And then all that time, I was like, it’s her, it’s her, it’s her, it’s her. And it’s like, she’s a customer. She’s super busy. She’s got her whole life going on. Her husband is super busy. And, but I, but I was just like, no, this is it. And I saw it and I I’ve been there and I need to make sure that this happens. So I feel like my life has been a lot like that. I don’t, I don’t fight things. Like I don’t fight things that have to happen. Like it, I want to have a peaceful life in my, in, in my soul. I feel like the only way to do that is to listen to it.

Maribel Lara (25:04):

Right. Well, you’re clearly a visionary. I think that I’ve never heard someone describe it that way, in terms of like, being able to look at the future and feel like you’re there feel like it’s tangible, but that to me sounds like a visionary, right? You’re clearly comfortable with change and comfortable with the fact that like, you will play different roles and, um, really happy to step in and out of roles based on what’s. Right. And so like a, a real sense of, um, justice, which sounds interesting to talk about in a business context, but that sense of what’s right. And what’s needed. And what’s the most appropriate really does feel like a sense of justice. Um, things we, I haven’t, you know, I’ve, I’ve now done a few of these interviews for building while flying, and those are topics that haven’t come up in this way.

Maribel Lara (25:53):

So thank you for being vulnerable and, and candid and sharing all of that good stuff. Um, we’re starting to run outta time, which is right. Like time flies when you’re having fun. And I think this has been a really wonderful conversation. Um, we’ve talked a lot about drew. Um, I want to talk about, right. I would imagine folks are questioning, what will he do if he leaves dree, but dree is not the only thing you do. You are very involved, um, in the, uh, startup community, entrepreneur community in salt lake city, right. Uh, Utah, where you are now. So first talk about how you landed in Utah. Um, and then tell us about, um, how you were involved in the startup community there outside of Dre.

Edgar Carreon (26:40):

Yeah. So, you know, with our business, especially having very little experience with laundry and not being like in this space, you know, I, I didn’t know how to care for, for people’s clothes. I knew that we would be making a lot of mistakes. And so, as I looked at where we should go, I, I, I felt like the right thing was to go to a place where we’d be forgiven quickly. And if there’s anything that you hear about Utah, that’s repeated is man, people are really kind there. People are really kind there, you know, like that was like a thing I would always hear. And so, you know, we would travel to Utah to check it out. And we went to some places in Texas and we went to, um, Idaho and a couple others, but we just kept feeling like people are really nice there. And if we’re gonna go and ruin somebody’s entire wardrobe, someone that’s really let’s like mess up someone’s wardrobe. Who’s really nice. <laugh> and, um,

Maribel Lara (27:46):

That’s brilliant. Oh my goodness.

Edgar Carreon (27:49):

Yeah. We ended up in Utah as a result. And what’s crazy is that when we, we pulled up to our home and in, in a U-Haul and the neighbors just like came over and were like, how can we help? And then one neighbor across the street in particular, um, said, Hey, I can take tomorrow off if you guys need additional help. And I’m like, oh my gosh, this is already like happening its day <laugh>. Um, so we had people that brought us lunch, dinner, people that wanted to take the next day off to help us move in. And it, you know, it’s not a common, you don’t feel that. I mean, I’m from Seattle, I’m not from New York, but I’m from Seattle. And we’re, we’re not like as driven by that, you know? Um, so, so it was just, it was right. And it happened, we, we originally thought we were gonna use bleach, you know, like, oh, if anybody wants us to bleach their clothes, to make sure they’re bright and white and crispy, we’ll do it.

Edgar Carreon (28:48):

Well, we ruined an entire thing, like an entire load of laundry got bleached and it was a color one. Okay. And I remember, and we, so we, you know, contacted the customer. We went through all the clothes with our gig worker and we were like, we cover it. We don’t ever put that on the gig worker by the way. But we went through everything, came up with what all the garments were worth mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then we sent the customer, the reimbursement, and then we, uh, called them and let them know. And they called back and they said, no, I’m not taking that reimbursement. We know you guys are starting like, take it, but also take it as a learning lesson. We do want to hear, you know, what you guys ended up doing to fix this issue. And it was just like this, that was the right decision. This is the place.

Maribel Lara (29:39):

Wow. Right. Um, I’ve definitely heard of people selecting right. Where they start from based on tax implications based on, right. Like <laugh> based on, um, you know, the hiring economy, like being able to find workers and things of that story. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a story. Talk about looking for a place where people would be nice when you up. <laugh>.

Edgar Carreon (30:03):

Yeah, exactly. That, that was like, that’s that’s seriously what drove this decision <laugh> and I don’t know. I feel like, as we’re talking about this business, I, I I’m, I, I, I focus a lot on the emotional aspect of it because that’s what drives me, you know? But the reality is that, like we know that we have to build a big business, you know, and we build that way, but we don’t have, like, we just don’t forget what’s at the core and that’s people. And I, I always say that we’re, we’re people supported by technology, not technology supported by people, not in our company. I know it’s how a lot of other people function, but not here.

Maribel Lara (30:44):

So Edgar, if other of folks looking to start, their companies are considering Utah, where can they find you in the startup community in Utah?

Edgar Carreon (30:54):

Yeah. Well, Utah, as you know, is blowing up with startups. There are a lot of great companies that have now come out of Utah. We’ve got incredible entrepreneurs that have exited and then they stay and build the Utah ecosystem. So it’s pretty amazing. Like I, I recommend this place for sure. Um, I’m always on LinkedIn, Edgar dree.com. I’m in like super accessible. Um, I’m here and happy to chat, introduce. I I’ve been really lucky to get involved with the network and build a really great community. Well, very welcoming community, which is cool. Especially as, as a, as a person of color, um, coming to what would you, what would be predominantly white, but open arms. It’s been amazing.

Maribel Lara (31:42):

Nice Utah. That should be their, their new like state motto. Nice Utah. We’re nice here. Uh, so go and find Edgar and talk to him. If it’s something you’re interested in, he, uh, co-sponsored an event with the governor if I am right. If I’m not mistaken. So

Edgar Carreon (32:00):

Yeah, I’ll share really quickly. So I have a lot of love, you know, for the community here. And in particular, what I wanna do is I wanna start highlighting that, that our community of Latinos are also involved in doing great things here. I don’t want our community to be left out. So I, um, have partnered with a, a nonprofit called Hispanic star. And part of that network, um, brings a community of partnerships. And, um, one of, some of those have allowed us to come to Utah and work with larger organizations. Like you said, the state of Utah, the governor in particular and, and do things, positive things, good things, whether that’s donations, whether that’s service, whether that’s just like an event to, to get everyone together, um, with Latinos involved and, and getting us in the rooms where we typically don’t get invited to. That’s a big thing of mine.

Maribel Lara (32:54):

Um, love it. More, more impact, constant impact, Edgar, Edgar. This has been lovely, my friend, um, I’m very excited for more people to hear your story and get to know you. And I’m super excited to watch what you continue to do with dree and, and outside of that. So thank you so much you, on behalf of everyone impacted by the work you do.

Edgar Carreon (33:15):

No, I, I thank you so much. I, I’m lucky to do it.

Katie Hankinson (33:21):

Thanks for joining us for building while flying today. I hope you learned as much as we did. We’ll meet you right back here next time for another flight.

Mickey Cloud (33:32):

If you’d like to hear more about how business owners and brands are navigating these times tune into the next episode. And if you’re so kind, please rate and review us, plus we’d love feedback. So let us know what you think, what you’d like us to dig into next on building while flying across brands, businesses, marketing, and more

Katie Hankinson (33:47):

Original music by Fulton street music group.