Episode 61 – Why Debt is like Dating – with Jeremy Hill, Founder of JB Capital

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Welcome to building while flying a Sasha group podcast, where we interview business leaders about how they tackle challenges, stay resilient and navigate ever changing skies.

Julia Balick  (00:10):

Welcome back to another episode of building while flying on this week’s episode. Joe speaks with Jeremy Hill founder and managing partner of JB capital, an alternative asset management firm investing in areas of the market underserved by traditional banks. So Jeremy has been pretty involved in, in a lot of our products for a while, so it was nice to have him on and, and hear his story. Um, so what do you think makes Jeremy a different type of investor?

Joe Quattrone (00:42):

Yeah, Jeremy’s been a good friend of the company. Um, I’d say there’s a number of different things that makes him a unique type of investor. Um, number one, that he didn’t take, uh, you know, a traditional approach to where he’s been, where he has, you know, ended up now, you know, there’s all the trappings and the cliches that people we’ll talk about when they talk about VCs and bankers, uh, you’ve gotta go to this type of school. You’ve gotta do things this type of way. You’ve gotta wear this type of, uh, uh, outfit or clothing. And, um, you know, none, none of that stuff really worked for Jeremy. He talks about how he went through, uh, the motions of trying to do things, uh, that the prototypical way in, he wound up being really bad at it. You know, he wound up, uh, having something like 13 jobs over the course of a couple of years or something like that.

Joe Quattrone (01:29):

And then that’s really what propelled him to decide to go out on his own and become an entrepreneur and start his own business and, and really kind of, you know, start to bring his own thoughts to the marketplace. You know, he’s also a very, you know, self effusive kind of character, uh, not, he doesn’t really have a lot of hubris. Uh, and I think when he thinks about the future of lending and, uh, you know, the ability to give people credit versus necessarily just stick them with an equity deal and start taking on, um, taking over, taking on certain aspects and elements of their company. Um, I really do feel like he’s a little more purpose built. He wants to see entrepreneurs keep as much equity as possible and he wants to be a small part on the road to their way to success.

Julia Balick  (02:18):

Yeah, definitely. Well, I think a lot of our listeners can take a page out of his, to Jeremy’s and Phil Knight’s book and instead of doing what they think they should do, um, just do it. So let’s not keep our listeners waiting any longer. Let’s dive into Joe’s episode with Jeremy. Tell

Joe Quattrone (02:37):

Us a little bit about you and JB capital and what brought you to where you’re at today?

Jermey Hill (02:43):

Well, you know, I mean, I, I’d love to say that it’s a, uh, um, you know, a beautiful, wonderful, planned, happy story that, you know, uh, you know, I went to school and I got a great education. I got a good job and, you know, I got a house with a picket fence and a Jeep Cherokee and a golden retriever, and yeah, it’s about the exact, like opposite,

Joe Quattrone (03:00):

Exact opposite.

Jermey Hill (03:02):

My, my story is more, you know, run really fast and when you hit something turn right

Joe Quattrone (03:07):

<laugh> and so sounds like, uh, how parents teach their kids, how to like train for the Olympics, just don’t run that wall don’t fall up that balance being

Jermey Hill (03:15):

<laugh>. Um, you know, I think like, like most, I always had a, a little bit of a, um, a bug to do something more, um, to do something more, you know, define more as you will, something not average, something, not routine. And mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, through one path or another, it is, it led me to, I kind of venturing out on my own. Um, my wife and I got married young, and so I, I young, I mean, young and we were, you know, young and broke and stupid and trying to, trying to figure stuff out. And you kind of don’t know. And so ultimately I think it is, um, you know, I find myself in a series of jobs, um, neither of which I was, you know, or none of which I was very good at. Um, we ended up starting our first company, which was a wireless phone company way back in the day and my partner, um, at the time it is in the business was new and young and married and I drank and drank beer.

Jermey Hill (04:05):

I was new and young and married and also drank beer. And that was about the totality of the business plan back then. Right. And so we grew that business from, from, from Michael and I to, uh, you know, us plus two plus 20 plus 40 plus about 60 or 70 folks, um, and was a good business. Um, yeah, wife got pregnant realized quickly. It is that, uh, you know, I needed to, uh, um, you know, have health insurance, you know, that might be good, you know, as a dad, to me, we should probably get some of that health insurance. I should wear a tie. I should get one of those little badges, you know, that, you know, hangs on my belt that buzzes me into the building and I should be responsible and, and, uh, quickly found that, um, I was not very good at that. I had, uh, 13 jobs in about two and a half years. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, and just, you know, through those course of events realized I was for something else, um, ended up starting a business gun by default, which today became GB capital 20 years later. So again, like most people have a, you know, a planned 1, 2, 3 paint by numbers story. Mine was not that, but it’s turned out to be a, uh, a kind of a beautiful, uh, happy accident

Joe Quattrone (05:08):

There you, yes. So your whole career has been about the pivot and changing and adapting.

Jermey Hill (05:14):

Yeah, it has been. And I mean, kind of fast forward, you know, to today our, our business. So my company, JB capital, um, we provide, you know, flight creative kind of capital for growing companies across the country. Right. And so that started in the investment banking kind of capital markets business about 20 years ago to where we were kind of a hired gun to help companies go solve problems. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, most of those problems had something to do with something to do with money. Um, and that kind of evolved now to where, what it, what we had been doing historically alongside banks and, and family offices and other investors that are doing off of my balance sheet and, and raising capital and, and trying to make a dent, trying to make a difference.

Joe Quattrone (05:49):

Yeah. So, and I saw that, uh, on your website, you mentioned that you’re a hundred percent focused on credit now, um, explain that to the audience a little bit, what, uh, caused you to shift into a hundred percent focus on credit. And, um, I, I did notice from, uh, kind of looking at some of your videos and Vimeo, it seemed like 20, 21 was a good year for you guys. So it seems like the strategy is paying off a little bit. Uh, why don’t you go into detail a little bit on the strategy, uh, to focus on credit and then, uh, talk to us about how that, uh, applied to your year in 2021.

Jermey Hill (06:20):

Sure. You got it. So credit is, you know, there’s, there’s different ways it is to, to finance companies, right? Fundamentally kind of the basics are, you know, it’s either done with debt or equity, right. And it’s most kind of simple rudimentary forms, right. And debt in a number of different flavor is basically credit. And it can be, you know, done a bunch of different ways. We think it is that we, you know, do it pretty good, but basically we, we rent money in its simplest words, right? So just like a bank or just like a private lender of sorts, it is I’m renting money or loaning money to growing companies with the hopes it is to God, you know, to get it back. Right. You know, um, equity investors are looking at companies. It is, and they’re coming in and they’re saying, great. I’m gonna put, you know, uh, you know, a hundred grand or a million dollars or 10 million into Joe’s software business with the right, with the thoughts.

Jermey Hill (07:12):

It is that the value of Joe’s software business is gonna go from a, to B over a certain period of time. Thus, the value of my equity is going to increase as well. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> from a, from a credit perspective, credit is basically it is, I am going to, to attach a degree of kind of security and I’m going to loan you money, not necessarily take equity interest in your business, but you’re going to rent that money from me or rent that equity from me and pay me a monthly or quarterly or annual dividend or, you know, interesting. Yeah. Right. That’s that, that’s the fundamental difference for, for me, when I look at this is that I look at, at debt like dating and I look at equity, like kind of getting married. Right. You know, simple for me. Right. So when, when I’m looking at equity investors that come into a business, I, I look that like, like getting married, right.

Jermey Hill (08:01):

You more likely than not most people don’t marry the first person it is that they date. Right. Sure. And you need to put a, a hell of a lot more, uh, uh, uh, a focus and thought into who you are going to be as a life partner. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> same. Thing’s true for your business. Right. If I’m gonna give up percent equity, it is in my business to, you know, Bob, the investor, I’m gonna put a lot more diligence on that rather than if I’m just going to borrow money. Right. Right. You and I all know somebody, it is who, uh, uh, has been married that, you know, two years, five years, 20 years later, they’ve unfortunately gotten divorced. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and that divorce from choosing the wrong partner

Joe Quattrone (08:39):

Destroys

Jermey Hill (08:40):

Of them can wreck your finances. Yeah. It can wreck your family. It can screw up your kids. It can, I mean, it can, it can re havoc across all aspects of your life. Mm-hmm <affirmative> the, the exact same thing is true. If you choose the wrong equity partner for your business. Right. Right. Thankfully for me and my marriage, my wife is a fricking rockstar. Right. And so I’ve been able to do things because I chose the right partner that maybe I couldn’t have done without doing so. Right. From a, from a debt perspective, that’s kinda like dating, right? Like we can choose to go out for a while. And if, you know, six months later, we don’t like each other anymore, then you’d go out with somebody else next Friday night. Right. That kinda thing. Right. You, so for us, when we are looking at a credit perspective in these businesses, we are coming in and we’re writing kind of one to three year loans. So we are not, you know, a six month overnight bridge lender, and I’m not, you know, 5, 7, 10 year private equity. So we, we’re not a one night stand and we’re not a marriage proposal. We’re kinda at a

Joe Quattrone (09:38):

<laugh>

Jermey Hill (09:39):

Somewhere in the middle. Right. We’re somewhere in the middle. And so for us, from an investment standpoint, the way it is that we figured out a way to, to structure how it is that we do our debt. It does a couple things for our investors and myself. Um, I feel like it is that we’ve found a way it is to deliver equity level returns with all of the protections of being a lender, right. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, which has done well for us and well for our investors. From a portfolio company standpoint, we’re working with the, and you know, several of these folks, but from a portfolio company standpoint, we’re allowing these folks, it is to get access to, to capital and to partnerships and to opportunities to grow without necessarily having to, to dilute their interest or to give up equity. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> not that we necessarily don’t deserve it, but, but there are, there are far too many folks in this business. It is that, um, are looking out for their best interest, you know, and really not trying to help these guys. And so,

Joe Quattrone (10:43):

Yeah, I was about to ask you that, just, um, the difference between, you know, you, you talked a lot about why, uh, why a company should be interested in VCs versus a, a lender. Um, talk to me from your perspective, though, when you’re looking at places to put your money, does it change? You know, I know you’ve done, you’ve worked on both sides of the fence before, but like, how does it shift your mindset when you think about putting money in with the goal of getting a piece of the company out versus putting money in to get money out and over a short term horizon, or a medium term horizon, does that give you more? Um, I would imagine it would, um, you know, with, with the way that VCs are looking at companies, and when they’re planning on selling and taking a, you know, larger check or going IPO or something like that, they’re betting on the 1% of the 1% of te G type people out there versus are you able to kind of go a little bit down into the middle market and put some bets onto some trustworthy individuals and, and kind of, uh, take that strategy to market a little bit versus going out and, and jocking over the, the same, uh, Allstar, you know, um, you know, tech companies or software companies that are coming about.

Jermey Hill (12:01):

Yeah. I mean, I think that, I don’t think that the, uh, the bloom is off the rose, you know, necessarily for the, the, the venture capital market there’s going to, you know, I would expect to be a long tail in that business and continue to do so. I do think, however, that entrepreneurs and small businesses, uh, have gotten a little bit smarter, right? Like the, these guys would rather pay a premium to rent my money rather than, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, a give up 20% of their, you know, business to some kid in San Francisco or of the Patagonia best. Right. You know, like guy bless that guy. Right. But we we’re certainly seeing it is over the last several years that a lot of the VCs in that community are beginning to drive economics and make decisions. And it’s kind of the tail wagging the dog a little bit because they wanna drive economics in that portfolio to get a good return, to look good in next year’s pitch deck when they go out and raise next year’s funds.

Jermey Hill (12:58):

Right. And so it’s a little bit perverse on the fact that the investor is looking in their best interest to substantiate their position for next year or two year or three, or whatever, to go raise more money and do it again, um, which may not necessarily be the best for what that company is going through at that period of time. And I think it is that that business owners and entrepreneurs are being aware of that. And so in that VC world, the old kind of, you know, fundamental deal here is I’m going to look at a hundred companies to invest in, you know, five or 10, the five or 10. It is that I invest in of those 10, eight are gonna go to one’s gonna do okay. And one is gonna hopefully, you know, shoot the lights out. And, and that will make up for the loss or the mediocre performance of the other 6, 7, 8, whatever it is, companies.

Jermey Hill (13:47):

Right. Think about those metrics in any other business, you’d be fired. Anybody that’s won from 10, from the free for the wine. Yeah, dude, you’re on the bench, you know, no, it doesn’t work at any other businesses. So how it is that we reward, that makes no sense to me, but there’s such a gobsmack of money chasing that and chasing that because I want to be a part of the next, you know, this, that, or the other thing, it is that to be me, doesn’t make sense for me the way it is that we look at things that we are really focusing on this, uh, what you call the lower middle market. These are companies typically under a hundred million in revenue that have some type of finance or credit or borrowing need between kind of two and 20 million, right. We, we are really focused on these company visa.

Jermey Hill (14:36):

It is that you’ve heard me say are kind of past that friends and family, mom, and dad, which around are raising money, but they’re really not yet to a point to where institutional capital can afford to pay attention to ’em. Right. So Joe and Jeremy don’t need to borrow 20 or 40 or 50 or a hundred million. We need to borrow two or six or seven or eight or whatever it is that kind of two and six and seven. That’s a really scary check for like the local rich guy do by himself. But the majority of people in London or New York or Chicago that have institutional money, they don’t give a about writing a 3 million check, right? Like three millions. The is the fee income. It’s not the deal size, right? Like 3 million or travel and expense budget for the year. It’s not, it’s not the size of the investment that I’m making. And so

Joe Quattrone (15:19):

It’s the money to pay the assistant of the assistant.

Jermey Hill (15:22):

Yeah. You’ve got it. The assistant of the assistant. And so there, there is this just massive growing burgeoning group of companies across country now that are kind of finding themselves in purgatory, right? Like they, they need something different than what their, their, their banker and their rich uncle can do. But the guy in Chicago that just raised $2 billion last week, who has the experience to help him that even if he, even if he wants to, he really actually can’t stop for long enough and actually pay attention to him because cuz he has too much money. And so we’ve really found this need here for these growing companies, a lot of which you and I and James have kind of gone back and forth and talked to that there is a huge need for some smart money to come in and help these guys.

Joe Quattrone (16:06):

Yeah. I mean, you sound like, uh, if anybody out there listening has paid attention to the Saha group story, you sound like this, the capital world <laugh>

Jermey Hill (16:15):

Really when, whatever, when I saw young month ago, right. Is that kind of, for what, what Sasha has done in, in, in the, the marketing world we’ve kind of taken that same approach it is towards, towards deploying capital, right? So hopefully if we modicum of y’all success, we’ll be in great shape.

Joe Quattrone (16:32):

Yeah, no, that’s still let’s switch gears then and talk about, um, the current state of affairs in the future a little bit, cuz I feel like the, uh, people that are listening to this, to the building while flying podcast, uh, are at the very least interested in learning from the Sasha group, if not actually doing business with us. So, um, you know, the fed just made a little adjustment, uh, talk to us, what’s gonna be happening in 22 as a result of that. I know we’ve been riding high from an economic perspective for about a decade and a half since the last great recession. But uh, what do you see happening in 2022 and, and how might our listeners, um, you know, kind of really dive into this, uh, year, uh, without too much, uh, panic

Jermey Hill (17:13):

Our us and where it is that we see credit from how it is that we work a rise in interest rates is only gonna do positive things for our business. So as perverse as that might say, or perverse as that might sound, is that, you know, the majority of lenders banks included operate on a, uh, either a li B O plus or a prime plus, you know, X, Y I Z, to to determine their interest rates. Right? And so as you see a climb, you’re gonna see the cost of borrowing from either your local bank or a BDC or other private lender. You’re gonna see that cost of capital is gonna go up. Right. And so at where it is that we loan, what ends up happening there is that degree of kind of margin between a bank’s money. And my money now becomes less.

Jermey Hill (17:55):

And so we actually become more attractive. So for us, mm-hmm, <affirmative> I think honestly it is we’ll get better swings at bat for, uh, um, even even better companies. Right. I think that’s one, I think the other thing it is that we’ve look at right now, um, this year is that we are going see a lot of movement, I think, and again, I’m not an economist, so, so, you know, put some surge general warning on this statement or something. Right. But, um, I do think it is that we’re gonna see some movement out of the equity markets this year, right? Is that we, it does seem to be kind of law long in the tooth. It is for public equities this last couple of years, we’ve had everything from massive kind of political and social movement and unrest and craziness. We’ve had the COVID and coronavirus stuff going on.

Jermey Hill (18:39):

We’ve now got a war going on in Ukraine and whatever kind of, you know, marination of all these things kind of coming. If we look at what’s happened in the equity markets over the last couple of years, uh, you know, at an employment add, add, add all this kinda thing, equity markets are just kinda up and to the right. Right. You know? And so you’re kinda like mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it almost seems like two plus two equals potato. Like it just, that doesn’t make sense, like something at some point has got to give. And so, uh, I think there’ll be a movement out of their searching for yield somewhere else. Um, when you be again, to look at private equity, I think private equity, uh, and the venture capital market, there’s a ton of dough there. That’s gonna continue to have a long run, but I think that there is kind of perverse economics happening because as you dive in and begin to look at that, you realize that not every company is worth 25 times earnings, it’s just not, it’s just not right.

Jermey Hill (19:29):

So folks are gonna be looking for some type of, um, uh, yield or income instrument somewhere. I think private credit is a, is a good hope for that. I think a lot of people are gonna move to cash. Um, which candidly is makes you feel good to have, you know, five grand, 10 grand, a hundred grand, a million bucks in the bank, whatever, you know, whoever’s listening. It makes you feel good. The reality is the value of that cash and a rising interest rate environment is diminishing in value every day. Right? So you need to figure out a way for that, for that cash as an idle asset, to do something that’s either increasing your wealth, increasing your assets or increasing your income, right? Like each of those little hundred dollars bills as a soldier yet take that soldier and put him to work, to go to work for you to do something else. That’s kind of what it is that I see going on here. So for us, as we’re continuing to grow, I want to continue to, uh, um, increase the number of portfolio investments. It is that we have, um, not only from a diversification standpoint, but I, I want my capital working. Like I want my capital going in and helping these companies grow, regardless of whether it is that there is a war or Biden is president or whoever the next president is this I don’t care. Right. I, I, my work,

Joe Quattrone (20:49):

So speaking about that, you mentioned cash with the rise of inflation being so sharp this year, should, you know, people be looking at cash the same way as they maybe did five, 10 years ago and, you know, to the other end of the spectrum, like, you know, there’s a massive rise in and, uh, crypto and, uh, investing out there right now should be people be looking at that as an alternative vehicle to park some money to diversify, uh, you know, what kind of money that they’re

Jermey Hill (21:16):

Sitting on top of. Yeah. I mean, again, for, for me, cash is, is, you know, again, it’s one of those things that is, that makes you feel good, but sitting on cash is purely just that it just makes you feel good. Um, there is, I mean, look at this, there’s a, a recent, maybe 30, 60 days ago. It is article it is that red Dalio put out talk about Cassius trash, right. And how to be looking at that in a, in a rising inflationary economy for other assets. Um, I have, I, I have looked at crypto from afar. Um, I know how to spell in F T right. Thanks to Gary. But outside of that, you know, Gary has done, I think yesterday, yesterday, or day before, kind of a big, um, you know, senior thesis on kind of getting behind and understanding the value of NFTs. So I defer to him, uh, or to you guys on that, on crypto, look at that thing as kind of a, a potential item for diversification, but that needs to be at risk capital purely because of the volatility. Like I wouldn’t have my kids. Yeah.

Joe Quattrone (22:14):

Don’t put all of their

Jermey Hill (22:15):

Money in it. Right. Just as a new thing. Right. Like even, even the investors that have big stakes with us, like tell you, shouldn’t give anybody all of your money, including me and candidly, including yourself, you shouldn’t. Right. So, um, right now I would definitely look at opportunities for diverse outside the equity markets this year. I do think that they’re, I don’t think the music is gonna stop necessarily, like we’re gonna have a 25%, you know, sell off kinda like 2008. I don’t think that is gonna happen. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but, but there will be some adjustment, whatever the hell that means.

Joe Quattrone (22:44):

Right. And, um, you know, I think we’ll close off on, uh, not necessarily a last question, but kind of a last category. I want to talk about, you know, where your interest lie heading into the next few years. I mean, I’ve always been fascinated at the way VCs look at markets and where they choose to put their money beyond just the individual investments, but kind of speaking more broadly. Uh, you know, I think a lot of people out there, uh, became fans of, of Mary Meer back when she was at, uh, Kliner Perkins. And if followed her career, I used to look at the state of the internet report every year when it came out and just look at how she understood how broadband, uh, internet was gonna exponentially increase throughout the world and, you know, mobile device, uh, penetration, multi a household, uh, multi device penetration for household around the world.

Joe Quattrone (23:34):

And I’d look at these metrics as a key indicator of, well. I should be out there actively, uh, instructing all of my teams to invest in digital video, cuz that it seems like is where the world is headed right now. Uh, and a lot of people have used, uh, the knowledge and, and wisdom of people like yourself and people like Mary to, to kind of figure out how to fine tune their service businesses or understand how, uh, you know, consumer demand was gonna shake out. So where, what kind of, uh, in trees and verticals are you looking at right now as the economy’s changing that are gonna be, you know, uh, paying dividends for yourself in the next, uh, 10 to 20 years?

Jermey Hill (24:14):

Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, I think the, the fundamental things it is that aren’t going to change right, is, is technology and the kind of the advancements of technology across broad spectrum are going to, uh, continue to be here, right? Like even though when you and I watch future movies of mad max and this kind of stuff, we’re all gonna go live in the dirt and drive big dune buggies and stuff like that. Don’t see that happening probably in my lifetime. But, um, the advancements of, of technology and software are going to continue to be there. So I can see us playing in there for us as a, as a lender and investor. I kind of like the, the business to business aspect of technology and software more than the BDC aspect of things. Um, I see healthcare as definitely having a long tail, um, for sure. So for us in our investments is gonna be in kind of health tech and med tech. Um, I don’t do biotech drug discovery line of sciences.

Joe Quattrone (25:07):

So less on the pharmaceutical side,

Jermey Hill (25:10):

My side don’t pretend to be right. So <laugh> um, but I see telehealth having a long tail, like the telehealth business has been around a dozen years and now we’ve, we’ve seen as a result of COVID telehealth blend into everything from, uh, marriage and family therapy to veterinary medicine, to mental health, to all sorts of stuff. I see that having a long tail, the other two things that is, that are a big focus for us that I think aren’t going to go anywhere anytime soon is number one communication, right? Like, uh, think about zoom, you know, three years ago, four years ago was like one out of every 25 meetings. And now we’re wondering why the hell would I fly to New York when I can just jump on a zoom and see Joe, right. You know, right. Something real quick that has changed as this kind of evolution and proliferation in advancements of technology, whether it’s 5g or video or, or, you know, something else that’s going to continue to advance and expand.

Jermey Hill (26:01):

Um, the other thing that’s gonna continue to advance and expand, um, I believe is kind of the EV world we’ve made a few EV investments. It is <affirmative>, um, that I’m excited about and are now looking at kind of the EV supply supply chain. It is to support that if you look, you know, five years ago, Tesla was kind of the, you know, the greatest thing since slice bread. And, you know, I’ve never bet against Elon. I like that dude, but you’ve now seen lucid and Waymo and every major car manufacturer is now moving towards this evolution in, in, in electric vehicles. Right. Um, right. That is going to continue. Uh, that’s gonna continue on, um, both from kind of a, a necessity and kind of a, um, a govern government mandate of pushing, pushing that way with them putting so much money behind that, that that’s gonna be here for a long ways. So those are some opportunities I see in kinda the next, you know, 3, 4, 5 years to where we’re spending time.

Joe Quattrone (26:54):

Selfishly, because I run a division of the SA group called the education division. Uh, what are your feelings on, uh, you know, you mentioned communications, but how are, you know, education, adult education continued learning, uh, utilization of communications. I imagine there’s gonna be tons of, uh, software companies cropping up to help teach people in a, in a kind of 20, 25 type of way. Now that all this stuff is happening. Have you considered, um, advancements in educations as, yeah, not necessarily the public sector, but the

Jermey Hill (27:25):

Private, yeah. A sector percent. I think it is that, you know, Gary talked about this a lot. We actually just did a couple of interviews on this. That’ll come out to where, um, even for my own kids. Right. So I have, I have, my eldest son is a sophomore going into his junior year in university and then I’ve got my daughter and my youngest son right behind that. Right. And so we are looking at now, what is the, the, um, today version of the value of education and is it worth, you know, $200,000 for your kid to go to an, you know, get an undergrad, um, likely for most two things likely for most people and for most families, either number one, that’s not an option or number two, no, it’s not a value, right? Like we, we talk about all the time, right? Like if I have a heart attack today and go to the hospital, the guy that’s cutting my chest open, gotta hope you went to a good school and did well on his, them cats.

Jermey Hill (28:12):

Right. And didn’t drink the night before my surgery. Right. Or if I’m getting sued and go to court, man, my attorney better be a badass. Right. But if it’s, if it’s something different that is not that the, the, the universities and what it is that they’re charging for that experience, um, I’m not sure is worth it. So when you begin to look at like a couple of years ago, I think Google and apple, and a lot of these major employers came out and said they no longer require a degree, uh, for any of their, their applications. Google came out with like a, like a, a Google U or something like this to where they’re now offering certification courses, that if you finish courts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, then you’re guaranteed some job at Google somewhere kind of a thing that I think is going continue, um, to grow and to be more evident, we saw 10 years ago kind of this kind of growth and proliferation of kind of EU and the Khan academy and these kinds of things to where mm-hmm, <affirmative> you and I can go on and become more or learned on something that I actually care about learning about not just some guy from a pulpit preaching me something that I don’t give a about, but I gotta check it to graduate.

Jermey Hill (29:15):

Right. Um, right. So what you’re doing in that space for kind of the private education market, whether it’s software or business or social media or otherwise, that’s not going anywhere. So I, I think you’re in a great,

Joe Quattrone (29:29):

Awesome, well, I think we’re at time, so thank you very much for joining us on the building while flying podcast.