Episode 48 – Making Virtual Experiences Better – Farah Allen, CEO, The Labz

Katie Hankinson (00:01):

Hi, I’m Katie Hankinson and I’m Mickey Cloud. Welcome to Building While Flying a Sasha Group podcast, where we interview business leaders about how they tackle challenges, stay resilient and navigate ever changing skies.

Mickey Cloud (00:17):

Awesome. Farrah, thanks so much for, uh, joining us on building while flying.

Farah Allen (00:23):

Oh, so glad to be here. Thanks for having

Mickey Cloud (00:25):

Me. <laugh> Farrah Allen is an accomplished media technology leader with over 20 years of leadership experience spanning the management consulting agency ran the Allen group, uh, which we worked with fortune 500 organizations with the need for internal technology innovation as well as being the CEO and co-founder of the song society app Farrah is currently the founder and CEO of the labz, a drag and drop no code digital design platform that creates high end communication, rich interactive websites and live ex event experiences. Uh, and Farrah. I have to admit that even I think that copy kind of undersells how cool and different the labs is and, and what it made made. It kind of click for me was hearing you kind of the platform and hearing about an example of how it’s being used. So, um, could you maybe start there for audience just on, on the labs in, in terms of bringing it to life?

Farah Allen (01:11):

Sure. Well, you know, um, let known fact, I actually had a different company prior to COVID, um, COVID COVID businesses, or we call ourselves COVID babies and we we’ve grown or, or COVID phoenixes we grew, um, because of the opportunity that this devastating thing that was happening to the world kind of grew from it. Right? So what grew from my, my last business was that I had a collaboration platform for people in media entertainment. One of the things people really liked when they’re using our product was how customizable it was. Like, you can change the background, make the backgrounds, anything you want. You can, you know, call people in that background and have video conferences and exchange files. It was really interactive, um, to be a collaboration platform. So

Mickey Cloud (02:02):

When you made it, you made it, you made it fun to kind of be in a collaborative, online setting,

Farah Allen (02:08):

Correct? Correct. And it was still a new company and we were in a beta and COVID hit. And our, the folks that, you know, wanted to pay for it before couldn’t really pay for it now. And their prime was how to present their content. Now that, you know, they had to kind of sell what they have and all they had was to all of these creative people had for them were things that weren’t creative. It wasn’t built for creative content to kind of like thrive and be showcased, not like a long term strategy. So what I did was build a long term strategy for content to be displayed and branded in a way that people wanted it to be. So, um, you know, even before we, we stopped coding, we had customers like the need just grew, right. And it was like, oh, what is it?

Farah Allen (03:02):

You know, what is it about this? Is it just everyone just forcefully, you know, is doing this and it’s gonna go away, but it didn’t go away. And what the world has transformed into and what it’s going to be is this place where businesses operated with majority online mm-hmm <affirmative> and not only is that true, how do we scale interest? How do we make sure that people remain loyal to brands or get introduced in unique ways and also collect data? How do we monetize this engagement? Like all these new questions arise, because now the majority of, of everyone, my mom, my grandma knows how to use the communication online. Right. So now, you know, and just to give you an example, we immediately in our beta got Amazon studios to have us as a platform for release and coming to America. Okay. Now, prior to this, they had to create their own platform.

Farah Allen (04:03):

They had to pay a lot of money to develop a platform for one day <laugh> right of usage. And this is a strategy. This is a strategy they have every so often they have a movie that releases and they wanna have people come on board and look at it first. So what they’re able to do on our platform is kind, still think of creative ways to market, to people, to brand, to keep things interesting, create stories, and use our tools like our chat or video conference, our photo booth. Like these are all tools that people can drag and pop in and activate something really unique and do that over and over and over again, without, you know, um, going back to their, their marketing budgets.

Mickey Cloud (04:47):

And what I think is so cool about kind of what your platform is enabling is when I think of like, you know, I joined the digital marketing world when interactive websites, it was, you know, the mid two thousands interactive websites meant like, maybe you played a game or maybe you like, you know, explored a little digital universe that was animated and things like that. Or you clicked around and watched different videos, but it was a very singular user experience. Right. I think what you guys are creating is it’s a collective experience. Um, and I guess maybe the component of like the video chat and like just, it, it, it feels, and especially when you do it around like a movie you release it’s this, it’s this collective experience that kind everyone is going through. And I think that to me is what, like, it’s, it’s truly kind of like the next level of what we talk about, like an interactive website. Cause I think interactive website undersells, like what, how it’s, it’s almost, it’s a live event that you’re attending and it’s programmed online. I know you talked about some of like the film festivals that when they, when COVID hit, like how do you, how do you hold a, a film festival that is so much about kind of the experience of going and watching the film and being around it and how do you recreate that online? Yeah.

Farah Allen (05:57):

I, I totally agree. The, the recreation happens with interactivity engagement, connecting people together and connecting people to you cuz you have a, you, I mean you’re there to, to meet some kind of goal, get some kind of result, right? So the, how do you do that? There’s is not one way to do it. <laugh> right. There’s several ways. There’s several new things you’re gonna think of as an organization. And, but you’re stuck in the limits of whatever platform that’s currently popular. Yeah. And you’re stuck with whatever they came up with. So, you know, vice versa within the labs, you’re not stuck. You are, this is an no code solution. You are building out very easily what this needs to look like for you to get the results you need. And not only in entertainment, but even, you know, we have a lot of government agencies and school colleges, universities and schools, and what have you that are using our platform because it’s an adventure every day. It could be something that could connects community or it’s just information being, you know, um, released to, to your community. It doesn’t matter. And it’s something that’s very flexible for you to do.

Mickey Cloud (07:12):

Yeah. I mean, I I’d certainly think of, you know, like my, my brother’s five year old daughter in kindergarten is, uh, like they had a COVID scare where she lives. And so now she’s like on zoom for three hours in the morning and it’s like, that is probably not the best learning experience for a five year old. But if, if, if there were more interactive ways to kind of keep and, and to your point, like if, if it’s just a, if zoom doesn’t have the, the capability, well then you’re kind of stuck. You’re talking about like, you can add these different elements to it. Are there, have there been examples from like schools and universities that you’re like, oh wow, that’s a really creative use of, of the platform.

Farah Allen (07:48):

Yeah. Um, so with we’re we’re working with Selman who is, you know, awesome college in Atlanta, Georgia. So they’re using video conference, breakout rooms, like, um, like clubhouse rooms. So it’s um, you know, so we do do audio only, too. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so breaking out these rooms in the style of clubhouse, something people are very familiar with right. In, in certain events and keeping those, um, rooms open so that people can continue to add value, add questions, respond back, you know, really come together as a unit to solve problems. So, you know, then at the same time, Spelman in the same instance can put up video content that people can comment on and continuously, you know, update this content daily or weekly because the platform allows you to do that. Very.

Mickey Cloud (08:41):

Yeah. So it sounds like, you know, you were building something, you know, for a different purpose that, and then the pandemic came along and you’re like, well, I could, we could kind of go in this direction that like clearly there’s demand for, um, what, what was, what was the toughest challenge in going through that, that kind of pivot,

Farah Allen (09:01):

Not knowing what to do to get the most value and, and as we move forward <laugh> so I I’m. So, because this is a, a new way of thinking a new strategy as to how you go, go to the market. Yeah. There’s some education, right? We’re, we’re able to get some of the biggest organizations on our platform because it makes sense. Like we need to scale, like we need to do this stuff, but essentially initially it’s not something people are looking for to expand just by look, Googling or researching. Right. So they come to us because they need an event that looks unique and they stay with us and become, um, long term customers because they see the opportunity to scale events, scale content that they’ve created and, um, bring the community to their content over and over again, and then collect data. You know, it’s all about at the end of the day, what are you trying to achieve? What are you trying to give your customers? And you don’t own all these platforms out there. You have to own platforms in order to, to get that, that information. Yeah.

Mickey Cloud (10:08):

How about kind of the emotional side of, of that pivot as well. So there was like the, the functional challenges of like, all right, how are we meeting the needs of, of the folks that are coming to, to, to set up this event and then turn them into like long term loyalists and subscribers to, to, to your model. But, but also I guess just the, for you as like the, the entrepreneur who had the original idea, like I, and, and, and then you had to follow it to a different place.

Farah Allen (10:33):

Oh, that was super hard. It was so hard. It wasn’t like, my other idea was bad. It was just really good. <laugh>. Yeah. But I, as an entrepreneur knew, I couldn’t deal, I couldn’t see this, this baby, this new COVID baby through, unless I totally focused my energy on it. Yeah. And because of the, um, instant, um, pool it was having in, in the community, I had to make a decision to focus on that. You know, it was revenue based. It was like, Hey, I’m a company I need to make money. What are people willing to pay for right now? <laugh> and that side of that side of the business, uh, just, was it, you know, and it’s kind of sad because you do spend a lot of time, um, building that other business and the technology works, right. It works long term. This could be a hit, but as far as like my sanity and how, how to really taking advantage of the opportunity with growing this, you know, experience platform to the next level, I could not do both. And that was like a really hard thing to kind of admit hard thing to tell others. But once it kind of took off, it got easier and easier

Mickey Cloud (11:53):

To <laugh> as you got more and more validated that you made the right choice. I’m sure that became, it helped me. Oh yeah. <laugh> I

Farah Allen (12:01):

Was like, oh yeah, I pivoted no big deal, you know? Exactly. But that, that took some growth, you know? Yep.

Mickey Cloud (12:07):

Um, I’m curious, when you, when it came time to kind of build the labs from the technical of things, like, how did you go about finding kind of the right tech team? I know you’ve got a background in kind of product development and management. So you’ve probably worked with a lot of different developers over time, you know, but think about, especially for, for those out there, there were founders who have an idea, but maybe aren’t the developer to actually go build the software. How did you go about finding kind of the right team?

Farah Allen (12:30):

Yeah. It was trial and error for me. It was as me working with a team, I actually had three teams and three different like re two different start over buttons. Yeah. <laugh> cause the first of course you’re like, okay, we’re gonna put up an MVP, but not everything is MVP. Like this was a lot, like a lot of widgets, a lot of infrastructure that needed to be built. So MVP just wasn’t what people were demanding at that time. They wanted like a full blown out thing. So starting with, with like the first version of this blown out thing, eh, it wasn’t big enough. It, the, it, the backend wasn’t tight enough the, of how you build this, wasn’t there for the resources I got like traditional front end and back end people. Yeah. And it was really slow to, to develop. And then, um, the next version was just someone else that I found that were, were game developers.

Farah Allen (13:34):

Hmm. And they had the, what it took, they had the creativity cuz they built, you know, they build universes <laugh> they build things, uh, online universes and they also are users, you know, of how to story tell online they were our customers. So getting that team on, um, first it was, was like, okay, can you fix what this other team did? <laugh> that didn’t work. So we started all over and you know, because we knew exactly what to build. It was just four times faster this time. Yeah. So we’re at the, the true release <laugh> of the platform where it’s going to be, it’s scalable. It works, you know, all these things happened because I found the right people that understood the product that were users of the product to, to keep going.

Mickey Cloud (14:24):

I love that. I love that too. Of like I had to go, you, you started maybe with some Oaks who are traditional website developers, builders, but then you realized, well actually what I’m building is a gaming universe. Let me go find some aiming developers cuz that’s the type of creativity and the type of storytelling that you needed. And, and I think that’s like such a awesome blessing of, of, you know, going towards what you, what you want, you know, like, like it’s almost like you had to find, just think about it completely differently. Um,

Farah Allen (14:52):

Yeah. And it, and there’s a time lament too, right. Because if I didn’t, if I kept going with those other, uh, people, which I could have, I could have been like fixing bugs or, you know, let me put my creativity in it. Then I would not have gotten the opportunities I have today because something, the quality wouldn’t be there. Yep. At all. And so knowing when to cut off and, and doing that quickly was essential to me kind of being where we are today. You have to be able to let folks go <laugh> or you do miss your, your timeframe. You know,

Mickey Cloud (15:29):

Unfortunately I’m curious if that skillset of knowing when, Hey, this is not working, we need to, I need to find a different solution. Did that skillset come from experience? Like how much of that was the lessons learned and experienced, gained over time from your tech consulting background? And I guess, I guess maybe more broadly, what types of lessons did you take from those years in consulting of applied to kind of having your own product?

Farah Allen (15:55):

You know what, it’s funny, my years of a consulting did not prepare me to be a founder as well as I thought it would be. I thought, because I worked with all these companies and you know, I’ve had to kind of start over, over and over again as a consultant with, you know, solution. It did not prepare me for thes that you need in when you’re not like fully established <laugh> yep. I’m not Delta, I’m not, you know, these, these folks just yet. So I don’t have money to pay like these top and developers. I don’t have money for all these departments. Yep. I had access to those, those things before. So doing it as a, so as this, as this company, that’s small, that’s trying to figure it out is totally different. So no, no preparation there <laugh> I did know how to hire, you know, but even that didn’t prepare me because I had to hire people who under had to understand that they’re not gonna be, they had to be really good and not get paid their full salary.

Farah Allen (16:56):

<laugh> you had convince folks of that despite you not having a, a name yet. So, um, the art of finding folks that are passionate about what you’re doing is, is something I had to, to look out for just by trial and error. Um, some other things that I had to kind of pay attention to when, during hiring process is just think about what I need right now. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because of course down the line, superstar engineers is going to get me a lot further, a lot quicker, and I wish I could hire them right now. But the benefit of, of, of it is that you can kind of incrementally work up to that. Yep. But as soon as you can get those engineers in, make sure, you know, make sure your stuff is you don’t have to worry about that side of the business as much.

Mickey Cloud (17:49):

Right. Um, and so I’m, I’m, I’m curious, you know, I take this in a little bit of a different direction in terms of, you know, I, I don’t have a ton of deep experience and kind of web 3.0, but even I can kind of see that the labs is set up well for a, a world of, you know, the metaverse world or programming built for kind of a VR headset, like Oculus. And I guess, how do you approach, like knowing that you’re building for kind of emerging technology that’s maybe on the fringes of adoptions right now, but has huge potential down the road. Are you even thinking about that? Yep.

Farah Allen (18:20):

Yeah. I’m definitely thinking about that. I am a big fan of VR. I have Oculus headset and the, the moment I step into it, I was immersed. I was engaged. I, I, you know, had fun. Yeah. But that’s me, a lot of my friends don’t have it. Um, a lot of folks, my age don’t have it. And you know, to me, I, I, I see this to, as adoption, this adoption rate being a lot slower than the news may have it. Right. Because not every into putting on a helmet, you know, 30 minutes or more. Right. <laugh> so what’s the in between, how do we get interactivity, but you know, kind of in the realm of incrementally getting used to it <laugh> right. We have, we just skipped a lot of steps by not having this web one, you know, I guess we’re at 2.0 right now, right.

Farah Allen (19:14):

At least 2.5 <laugh> 3.0, what, what does that look like? You know, and I kind of put it in the bucket of NTF, like that took blockchain, took a minute to get used to, and people are starting to get used to it. And technology is revolving around the ideas of people getting used to it incrementally. Yep. And that’s how you grow, um, the familiarity in the market to get up to in Oculus to get up to, uh, everyone understands blockchain and NTO like it hustle process. So there is business and opportunity in the, in between, because in between is the, it’s like a 10 year gap a lot of these times. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so of course there’s these people who are up here and they have, they’ve already started and they’re gonna be ahead in the next 10 years, and they’re gonna be ahead of the market, but us in between, which is I call the labs is trying to get people who of any age to adapt some ideas around the concepts of interactivity engagement, monetizing engagement, how to, how do you market to people who interactive content like these are all new strategies that go across every industry.

Farah Allen (20:28):

Yep.

Mickey Cloud (20:28):

And it is true. I mean, I do think that one of the silver lines that have come out as the pandemic is the, it there’s, the there’s people are getting more fam like, you know, just doing video conferences and being, and, and doing like conducting business, not just through a website, but through kind of the, the, the face to face interaction that you have over a screen. And, and just knowing that, like, you know, sometimes I used to fly, take all my day flying to get to one, one hour meeting, you know, somewhere else. And it’s like that just doesn’t, you know, like that just doesn’t even make sense anymore. <laugh> right. And so there is this kind of incrementality of, of just getting more people, more familiar with it. Um, I, I guess that maybe leads my, to my next question around, you know, it sounds like you’ve had a credible amount of demand for the labs kind of the, this creating easy, easy dragon drop kind of creating live experiences online. Maybe what’s next on kind of the roadmap for, for, for the labs.

Farah Allen (21:21):

Yeah. So I think of us as a media company, we’re unifying communication, right? Yeah. We have interactive things that kind of float around and, you know, you put it in backgrounds, but the end of the day, how we as consumers or folks that are wanting people to consume products, we wanna be able to talk to our folks. We wanna be able our folks to talk to each other about us. <laugh> yeah. Um, and we wanna be able to learn and grow our, our brand, our, the community around you, whatever, how, how and do that in unique ways that have some strategy behind it. We see us also, including VR into our experiences. And right now, like we’re actually releasing the opportunity for you to convert your labs experiences to a VR experience. Oh, cool. Um, instantly, so we are touching our foot and our toes into the realm of, of VR because we do understand this is the future, but we, um, we’re doing it in a way that makes people comfortable.

Farah Allen (22:30):

Yep. And incrementally doing it. We’re also working in an NFT space. Um, and you know, I pick on things that we, we are actually, we love <laugh>, we’re doing so we have a, a few NFT, um, showcase galleries for oh, cool. So we have some art galleries that have pre online universes, not VR universes just yet. And so the need to really step up, you know, your, your game in the space, cuz that those audiences are more forward facing technology. They are the VR users, or they they’re willing to be, is to convert all the communications to that. Everyone who no matter what is able to consume in that way. So that’s where we’re going. Yeah. And we, we’re trying to be web 2.0 3.0 and yep. You know, that’s the goal.

Mickey Cloud (23:21):

<laugh> awesome. Awesome. Well, so the last question, you know, we, we know when you’re, when you’re building, while flying, like it’s important to kind of keep calm under pressures. So when you’re, when you’re backs against the wall, you’re faced with a tough decision for your business, kind of what’s your internal pilots checklist that kind of, so to speak or process that kinda helps you get through, um, you know, that, that moment.

Farah Allen (23:41):

Mm that’s a good one. Well, I’ve learned to trust myself, trust my does judgment. I am the expert in what I do. I do listen. I’m a, you know, I, I’m a great mentee, but at the end of the day, if, if I need to make a decision, I’m pretty much telling myself, Hey, you’re genius. <laugh>, you know, either way you’re gonna, it’s going to work. It’s gonna work. And I also experienced that too. Like whether it’s the decision I made because of the information I had at that particular point. Yep. It has to be the best decision. I don’t have any other information to make that decision be better. Right. I have to trust that at the time. That’s what I had to do to move forward. So this backend knowledge is just relieves a lot of stress outta my life. Because even if something does go wrong, it’s still the best decision at the time I made it.

Mickey Cloud (24:41):

You’re not judging

Farah Allen (24:42):

Yourself. No, I’m not judging myself. And that’s like, you know you to protect your, your sanity as a, a founder because there’s a lot of things that’s coming at you. Yeah. Just every day. And if you take everything as it’s the end of the world, then you’re not having fun. And you last very long as a founder and we need you out there. We need innovator. So take care of yourself.

Mickey Cloud (25:06):

Oh, love that message. Awesome. Well, thanks so much fair for, for build, being on building while flying with us today.

Farah Allen (25:12):

Thank you for having me.

Katie Hankinson (25:14):

Well, now that we’ve finished that thoroughly interesting interview, we’re getting ready to land, but before we do Mickey and I caught up on some of the themes and topics that stuck out to us,

Mickey Cloud (25:23):

Yes, we liken this to the postgame show where we down the key lessons we all can benefit from, including us here at the Saha group here is the Sasha sidebar.

Katie Hankinson (25:36):

Hey, Mickey just listened to far Allen talking about laugh with Z, which is good that I know that cause I was Googling her and now I found her.

Mickey Cloud (25:48):

It’s such a, it’s such a cool product.

Katie Hankinson (25:50):

Yeah. It sounds really cool. And like obviously perfectly, perfectly birthed during the pandemic to create these immersive experiences that people couldn’t go to in real life. I would love to know like, are there, did she talk about examples of like how the, how, like a specific use case of how that, that kind of immersive world worked?

Mickey Cloud (26:13):

Yeah. And we touched briefly on it, but I know in like the pre, like in our, in, when I was learning more about her and I had a chance to chat with her for kind of, before we hopped on the, the interview, she was talking about a, a film festival. It was like a women in film and TV festival. And, and you know, like if you’re thinking about how those could be done virtually, um, you know, it, whether it’s like, I don’t know if you’ve done any, like gotten on zoom and watched a movie with friends kind of thing, but right. There’s like, that’s kind of the limitations of what zoom can do. It’s like, you can all be there at the same time, but you’re not necessarily watching the same screen or there’s, there’s some challenges with that. So what her platform has done is making it, you know, a no code drag and drop where any organization kind of come in and, and program an online event, the same way you would program an in-person event.

Mickey Cloud (26:58):

And so for this mm-hmm <affirmative> film festival, it was like, when you signed in, you went into like a sky waiting room where there was trivia and music, there was chat going on. There was posters of the movies that you were going to watch, you could click on ’em and, and learn kind of more information about them. And so you kind of had this time to kind of mingle with the other people that are good, like brows, exactly browse, but then also kind of mingle with the other people that are there that are also kind of participate the film festival. And then, you know, after 10 minutes kind of everyone is automatically brought into a theater. So like the environment changes on your screen and now you’re in a theater and, and then you watch the film and then it kind of goes into a Q and a session where the Q the filmmakers were in kind of the, brought up on the screen to do the Q and a, and then you went from that back to kind of a live where there was awards being given out.

Mickey Cloud (27:45):

And then you were kind of back to the lobby. So all of the kind of programming that would be done in person, um, with people coming in and outta the room and you going into different rooms and there’re being wine and cheese and all that kind of stuff like happening, like you could, your screen would kind of mimic that, that movement around and do different spaces and to different hosts and, and, and things that you’re interacting with. And so that to me was just like, oh, that is so much more than just hopping into a zoom or Facebook live or something like that. And, and watching it, it really makes it more, much more of a shared experience.

Katie Hankinson (28:17):

You know, the other thing it makes me think about is, um, for the obvious use case here is for a, um, movies. And, and then she talked about schools and she talked about a whole bunch of other things. But to me, it’s also such a lesson that people in entertainment automatically want immediately want to entertain their audience. And so they go to great lengths to make sure that, you know, the lobby feels like the movie theater and there’s distractions and cool things to interact with. There is no reason why that should not be the beginning experience of a corporate event. Yeah. Online, or even

Mickey Cloud (28:56):

Like a, non-profit a non-profit fundraising gala that you have to do online because you can’t go in person. It’s like, this is an exact, like, you can replicate almost your entire pro evening of programming with something like this, make it much more entertaining than just watching a livestream.

Katie Hankinson (29:09):

Right. And, or even like, I think about our all hands, I was really thinking the other day about, I think I told you about, they can do this season opener every quarter when they like begin every new quarter and like talk about their goals and all their ambitions and the cool they’re gonna do with the platform. And like, I like the, the term season opener, I think it’s got the same kind of feel like they’re borrowing stuff from entertainment and sports, theatricals and sports. Exactly. And so that this to me is, is that kind of thing like, and you don’t, I mean, Def definitely go to labs and check out the platform, but you don’t even, it doesn’t have to be the no code version out the gate. It’s just thinking about some of those things that, that actually create something a little bit more immersive and intriguing. And I

Mickey Cloud (29:56):

Love that she, she even told kind of the trial and error story of finding the right tech team kind of built, helped build her that, that immersive universe that she was kind of going for. And that, you know, she kind of, I think that was a good lesson of, of building while flying in terms of, like, she kind of knew the first tech team wasn’t up for the challenge and she could have beat her head against the wall doing that more, but instead just pulled the plug and, and hadn’t then pivoted like was like, I need to find gaming develop approach. Cause they’re, those are the people that are gonna know how this is gonna come to life in a little more creativity. So I loved, I love that as a lesson too.

Katie Hankinson (30:28):

Yeah, for sure. Like super immersive and fun. And then also she was so self aware about having to make that pandemic pivot. And it was nice to hear her being able to talk about the positive, the validating things that came of having a successful, having made a yep. Uh, successful, maybe pivot to something new.

Mickey Cloud (30:48):

So maybe our question for the audience is, is if you haven’t seen an event powered by the labs, maybe is there, is there a good kind of online event that you’ve been to, you know, that you’ve experienced kind of during, during this era. Cool,

Katie Hankinson (31:02):

Brilliant. Awesome. Thanks for joining us for building while flying today. I hope you learned as much as we did. We’ll meet you right back here next time for another flight.

Mickey Cloud (31:17):

If you’d like to hear more about how business owners and brands are navigating these times, tune in for the next episode, if you’re so kind, please rate and review us, plus we’d love feedback. So let us know what you think, what you’d like us to dig into next on building while flying across brands, businesses, marketing, and more

Katie Hankinson (31:32):

Original music by Fulton street music group.